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Beware, balance transfers you make on the phone aren't necessarily going to go through. I spent an an enormous amount of time to do a balance transfer still 3 days before the deadline. The person I spoke to seemed to not know anything about it, and kept having to go back to her manager every time to ask basic questions: the length of the promotion, the fees, the time it would take. Despite me being used to speaking with people with very heavy accents, my family included, her accent was so difficult to understand.
After a grueling amount of time, she confirmed it went through and that it would be done in 7 to 10 days. Arianna was her name. Her supervisor, Jason or Ron. Then nothing came through and I called June 19 to find out why. They were on the phone 20 minutes too and said my promotion was filed 2-3 days before the promotion to be sent and that was too closer to the deadline because it was a holiday.
5/28 is a holiday? Then the 31? Then they said I called on the deadline which still is allowed since their promotion says the 31st. They then said they could offer me a balance transfer for the non-promotional rate. Nope! They said even if they listen to the call they couldn't do anything about it. I asked for all their info and details, the manager wouldn't give his operator number but Kelsey #** did, Chris her manager wouldn't. They said they'd go listen to the call and call me back. I am glad they said they will because this is a scam if they are offering balances and then drop the ball. I'll edit this if they do call.
Honestly this is the worst bank I have ever had. I switched to Bank of America but kept Key Bank as my secondary checking and worst decision ever they aren’t well in guest service. They are always short on tellers and I’ve dealt with a branch the guy asked me what the deposit bag was. Are you kidding me? This bank is a joke. They love taking fees and can’t provide the times stuff was pulled out your account.
I canceled my father's credit card, which was a horrible process. Three months later I get a statement saying there was a fifteen dollar charge which now totals 75.50 with late fees. We called last night to inquire. Rep took all of his information, including his permission to have rep talk to me - he’s 89. She was to call right back. She did not. I called from work this morning. They can’t talk to me unless he is present. So, we will go through entire process this evening. Can’t even begin to tell you how frustrated we are.
It is Friday afternoon and my account still shows the same purchases pending from Tuesday. Everything since then hasn't posted. They do not update the information often enough. They tried to straight up ROB me! I keep track of my purchases and balance. I had enough money to cover my expenses up to the final one when I unexpectedly had to cover my friend's dinner bill. They tried charging me 4 OD fees totally $140 for being $6 over on ONE purchase! I spoke to two people on the phone who couldn't make sense of it either and they each fed me a lame excuse like "sometimes they go through in a different order." Even if that were the case, I had money to cover either the dinner OR the three purchases that they said went through after. I went in to the bank. The two women at the counter couldn't make sense of it.
The manager gave me another ** explanation and made me think she was taking them off only to find out that she only removed one. In order for her to do this I had to agree to setting up a hassle free account so I couldn't go over again because it was how she could "sell it to her bosses". FINALLY, the next phone call lead to removing 3 of the 4 charges (as it should have been) and I got an apology. The month prior, I was charged a fee that I wasn't supposed to be charged when I was down to a few dollars in my account. They apologized and took the fee off but would not refund my OD charge because they claim it was due to something else. I was over the exact amount of the remainder of the fee and hadn't made any purchases for several days before. I only banked with them for 3 months and they tried to rob me twice. I am DONE with them!
We got an account at Key Bank. When we got our first statement the charges were doubled for using a different atm other than Key Bank's! It totalled over $40 then I went to cash a check that I have been cashing the same check from my mom every month for 3 yrs and the manager lady treated me like I stole the check (I have been in there with my mom 100 times). I know they have to call if it's a certain amt anyway while she was verifying with my mom the lady walks by her and says, "Make sure she tells you the check number", and they both have the same reason for getting it! What business is it of hers what this money is for!!! Well they cashed it because they had no choice but I felt like I was doing something wrong by the way that manager lady treated me!!! No more Key Bank!!!
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My account was hacked & I found out because my card was declined at Walmart while visiting family in Virginia. I called and the online rep could not help me because my last 4 digits of my Social Security # and my birthdate did not match what they had on file. I always leave travel instructions with the bank so they know where I'm going to be because I was hacked before. They did not have that info on my account either. Someone put a $400 transaction at a Sam's club in Las Vegas. I went into my home bank with my ID and SS card and manager asked if I was previously a 1st Niagara customer and the answer was no. No apology or reason why my incorrect info was on file. I have not received a new card or fraud paperwork yet and am totally disgusted with this bank. I will go to another bank as soon as this is settled.
A rep from Key Bank reached out to me a couple of weeks ago to let me know that they were changing the KBO website and gradually transitioning clients to the system. No real information was given, so I assumed (incorrectly) that it would be primarily a cosmetic change and would be easy to navigate, as the old system was. My company was converted to the new system this week. What a nightmare! Although the website looks great (even if they do have a winter snow scene background in May), the ACH payment area of the site is vastly different from the previous system, not at all intuitive and did not port over all the information from the old system.
My frustration has been compounded by the fact that I've had to make multiple calls to tech support to learn how to use the new ACH processing system, and have sometimes been assisted by a customer service rep who has been less than satisfactory in attitude, aptitude, or helpfulness. I am highly dissatisfied with the way Key Bank transitioned small businesses to this new system. They should have given much more information in advance that prepared users for the drastic change to the way this system works. Major fail on the part of Key Bank in this transition to the new site.
Rudest employees and "Manager" ever (notice I put Manager in " "). I deposited a check written to me that bounced at the check writer's bank, but Key Bank (23116 Telegraph Rd, Brownstown Charter Twp, MI 48134 location) treated ME like I was a criminal. There was a hold on the check and it bounced prior to the hold being released so Key Bank did not lose any money, I did not cash the check or receive the funds, I simply deposited it into my account like you would any check someone writes you. Key Bank immediately closed my account and treated me like I was a criminal, spoke to me very poorly and rudely.
Since they are located so close to me I went back after that on another occasion to do a debit card advance because my checking account with my bank has a daily ATM withdrawal limit of $500 but a daily teller withdrawal limit of $2,000 - I withdrew $500 from KeyBank's ATM then went inside to withdraw the remainder of what I needed from the teller, **, and she said, "Didn't you just use the ATM?" I explained to her my bank account's ATM withdrawal limits vs. teller withdrawal limits and she looked me up and down, looked at my driver's license, and threw them both back at me and said "I can't do it, you're not a customer, you don't have an account, we only do debit card advances and credit card advances for OUR customers." The "Manager", **, was right there and witnessed ** treatment of me, he did not care.
I called the corporate office to lodge a complaint and they told me it is NOT Key Bank's policy to only process advances for people with Key Bank accounts, the Corporate Office was embarrassed about how I was treated by this branch but the complaint I lodged will be sent to the Manager of the branch, **, who treated me just as badly if not worse so nothing will be done. I am a busy person and never take the time to complain or write online reviews about poor service but had to with these people. AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL. It is not what you say but how you say it, and when you are in a customer service position you do NOT treat people the way they do, no matter who the person is.
I transferred money between TWO KEY BANK accounts to cover checks that were going to hit the bank that night, they didn't "recognize" the transfer until the following day causing me $187.50 in fees PLUS they sent my checks back. When I spoke to them, branch manager and regional operations manager, she said that I did it past 7 pm and that it is not recognized. It was a cash deposit into one account to transfer to the other because I didn't have my debit card with me. However when you do a mobile deposit before 11 pm it hits that same day, does this make sense to anyone? They are a BUNCH OF LYING THIEVES! This is how they make their money! Will definitely be looking to bank elsewhere! If I am going to overdraft my account, it needs to be my fault, not the bank spinning it to their advantage!
I recently charged my Key Bank card for a fishing trip to Canada, I have been doing this over the past 20 yrs. Today I opened up my account and found I was charged a processing fee for the purchase! I have never been charged before for this type of transaction. I called the 800# for Key Bank and the first person I spoke to was (Kiana) and she started out nice and then turned very rude and cold when I questioned her on the charge... Came out and said she can't do anything about it... I explained to her that I charge on this card for years and she said she will go back and look... So I was on hold for 10 minutes and she came back and said could not find any history.
I then told her to look at a date that was 2 yrs ago and hard to believe there was a charge to Canada... to the same outfit... And guess what (no exchange charge), she then said I have to go to my local branch. I asked, "For what?" She then said that it was on my agreement. I said, "I didn't even ask for you guys... I had HSBC, then First Niagara and then you... So I did not sign anything." She was then very short so I asked her to speak to a supervisor and she would not at first. I explained to her that I used to have several accounts with Key Bank. Well was HSBC, then went to First Niagara and then to Key Bank. I have had bad service dealing with Key Bank and have then pulled those accounts except this one.
Well long story short... I am going to close this account. What makes it more painful the amount they charged me caused the amount in my account to be lower than my recent purchase and I am getting hit with an overdraft fee... So anybody who has a Key Bank account be very aware of what they do. Very disheartening that they do business like this.
As others have said... WORST BANK EVER!!! Their online/mobile banking is a joke and, as I have been told by KeyBank representatives, it is NOT up to date. So even if you are checking regularly, they don't post all charges, etc so you really have no idea what is going on until a day or two later. Was told to sign up for text alerts to get 'Real Time' updates/information... Signed up for EVERY alert I could find (email/text) and have yet to even receive a single text. I get emails 2 DAYS later telling me about overdrafts. They hold CASH DEPOSITS to ensure they are able to charge an overdraft. Payments don't show pending so no warning. They are there and will cause an overdraft. It's truly ridiculous.
Called to get things straightened out, confirmed balance and charges coming in but the rep neglected to inform of additional overdrafts (FROM PREVIOUS DAY? - even though money was deposited to cover.) So money was deposited to cover what was confirmed but was charged yet ANOTHER overdraft because information was purposely withheld! Seriously, this bank is nothing but a bunch of Corporate THIEVES! They will take your money, hold deposits for 2 weeks (without warning or notice), wait 2 days to inform of overdrafts/problems, then charge you fee, upon fee then do nothing to help. I was told that if you have a branch that 'likes you' they might remove the fees... so, in other words... it's a popularity contest and unless the Branch Manager 'Like You'... sucks to be you!!! Save yourself time (and money) and go to another bank!!!
Decided to open an account when I received a promotional offer by mail. The entire experience was unpleasant. Very non-customer-centric bank. Closed the account after just 2 months and will never use the bank for anything ever again.
Key Bank is the worst. I changed bank accounts a few months ago and it was a giant fiasco trying to set up automatic payments from my new checking account. I tried doing this over the phone, and they said I would have to go to one of their branches to set it up. When I went into the branch, they said I required a voided check and would have to email in my application. That alone was extremely inconvenient, and in the meantime I've been making manual payments over the phone.
I recently moved and this month when I called in to make a payment, they said I would not be able to make a payment over the phone for one month since I just moved. Seriously? This bank is an absolute joke. Dealing with the utility company is a less stressful experience. I have no idea how they are still in business, but I can't wait till my loan is paid off so I never have to deal with them. Also, good luck using their online banking. Their password and username requirements are just plain dumb. Overall this bank has not kept up with the times. I can't wait till they go out of business.
Our business accounts have been with the same bank building for almost 50 years. We have been through at least a dozen acquisitions and name changes without any issues. Recently Key Bank took over from First Niagara and that's when the service went downhill. First to go was the helpful branch manager and her assistant; then the friendly tellers and, finally, the head teller. In their place, you had a bunch of rigid, unfriendly, unhelpful drones. Things finally came to a head when my 80 year old father was unable to cash a $10.00 check because the check was made out to his business and not to him personally. We went down the next day and transferred most of our accounts to another bank.
I have to agree with most of the one star ratings... and that is being generous. I visited the Parker, Colorado branch and what a joke. Perhaps mediocre customer service is a thing of the past and the concept is simply swirling the toilet bowl? Where do I start? I went in to cash a check on their bank. Ultimately, they charged me $7.50 simply to do that. Corrupt. The tellers (if that is the total they hold) simply ignored me for the first fifteen minutes. They ignored the drive up customers, telling one of them that the lobby was full.
Ummmm... I was the only one in line? How deceitful! There were two tellers. They spent more conversing with each other at the same counter than with anyone else. Another teller came in. One teller said he could help me. Well, that wasn't exactly true and he referred me to the "lead" who was ill equipped to answer simple questions. She seemed bothered that I wasn't a customer. Who in their right minds would be? I will never bank here... ever. A word to the wise.
7 years ago I was selling an antique desk online and received a buyer for it who sent me a Navy Federal check. I deposited the check only to find out it was fraudulent. The bank contacted me immediately to let me know. I never withdrew any monies from the check and as far as I knew the incident was over. Now it's 2018 and I go in and open a new account with them and after they deposit my money they tell me my account is flagged because of the fraudulent check that I deposited 7 years ago and they closed my account only to say they didn't wanna do business with me!!! Why allow me to open it in the first place? And why am I being flagged for a check I never withdrew any monies from that I also told them I received as payment from furniture I was selling online?
This is insane. I would've taken my business somewhere else and not used their bank if they had told me up front. I am definitely getting a lawyer to find out why this is legal for them to do to people. They wasted my time and then refused to give me any information on how to remove the flag. Everyone told me that Key Bank was the worst bank ever and that they have been known to use racial slurs among employees but I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The worst bank ever. The Federal needs to investigate how they do business with customers. This is abuse and stealing. How can you check your account and find that a payment had already came out, so I went and make a deposit. Now today the bank charge me an overdraft fee for something that had been deducted out of my account. What I can’t understand is the fact that the payment was already taken out of my account and I had money left over in the account.
I had a total loss a vehicle. They don’t cash the checks from the insurance money in order to try to get more money from me. How they can do this to anyone is disgusting. My accident was in December. It’s now March and they want payments from me, meanwhile one service rep said no checks are posted to my account. Then I call my insurance company and the checks were posted. Over $19,000 and they still try and make me pay. I call back. This woman now says they do have the checks. This is only when I have my insurance company on the phone. They are scammers and so unprofessional.
This is a combo between the Benson/Old Seward location(s). I've had a past account and recently opened up a brand new checking account with KeyBank. The branch rep that helped me asked all the basic qualifying questions about money in...money out. I told him that I was working on-call and my employment was far from stable and very unpredictable. He suggested the Money Market account. I also had a $200 promo code for qualifying direct deposits of $500 or more. I qualified once I handed in my direct deposit slip to my employer's payroll dept.
So I was set up with a Money Market checking account. I asked about the relationship rewards because of my past account experience and asked the dollar amount of the annual fee and thus I opted in. I cannot remember which of the two I called first or who made the changes to my checking account. But between calling the branch that opened up my Money Market account to the 1-800 Customer Care line; I was advised that Express Checking would fit my needs best. And once I was on the phone with them I realized the BIG difference between the 2 account types.
So they changed my checking account from Money Market to Express Checking. With the relationship rewards in mind I went into my neighborhood branch and was to pay my annual fee and realized that dollar amount was higher because my account type was changed. Now it makes sense, but once you were quoted one thing and therefore wasn't reminded that the relationship rewards dollar amount changes also that caught me a little off guard. I paid that amount nonetheless.
Moving on, I was doing business at my neighborhood bank and asked a branch rep about the $200 promo code. He said it was still listed on my account and I was good for another month a total of 3 months from the time I opened up my checking account. I don't read the fine print entirely (but most really don't). And why shouldn't I of taken the word of the banking rep that stated to me I had time for that $500 direct deposit to hit my account before that $200 promo would make me eligible. He misinformed me long story short. The $200 promo code was good for 2 months only not 3 months which I was quoted by that branch rep.
So between calling the branch that opened up my account, my neighborhood branch and escalations to the Executive Team; I was finally told after back and forth debate that it wasn't the fault of KeyBank and therefore my deadline was up on the $200 promo for brand new accounts. The neighborhood branch manager stated that if he could he would honor the $200 promotion (supposedly) but since I didn't open up my account with them; I had to contact the branch where I opened up my checking account initially. I called and the branch manager finally called me back. He was a listening ear at first and agreed with me that I was misinformed on the promotion deadline.
He asked who gave me the wrong info; I declined to give a name and he later called back and said that there was nothing more they could do. The executive offices were listening too and heard me out, but the conclusion remained the same. There was a small factor for the direct deposit slip on the end of my employer's time frame on the direct deposit? However there should be some accountability for misguided information between the 2 KeyBank branches.
Went into open a savings account for an Etsy shop. I has asked if it was cut and dry where there were no fees unless you obviously overdrafted. Anyway, sat there an hour with a guy and a woman that knew nothing and had no customer service skills, besides talking about their personal life. I have my accounts at American Eagle, I wanted to open an account and keep it separate from our other account in case something bad happened. Anyway, I sat there for almost an hour, no talk about the savings account, just asking me about my personal life, where did I work etc., then her telling me how her parents are building a home around a pool etc.
To the point. I asked "Heather **" IS THERE ANY HIDDEN FEES? SHE SAID NO AS LONG AS I GOT MY STATEMENTS ELECTRONIC AND TO MAKE SURE I DID THAT. The kid wanted me to use an app that you can combine all your banks, I was NOT interested in that, well she didn't hear that she said, and ASSUMED I would be doing that. WELL YOU DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY!!! As it took forever and the kid entering the stuff just sat and stared at me or into space it was awkward, I asked if there something wrong, he said no takes a minute, well it took forever! So, now Heather goes and gets the receipt of my deposit and just so you know, I asked, would I need a checking for what I'm doing, I was told no. Manager in Manchester bank said you would need a checking account.
I'm handed a folder with 5 sheets of paper, and my deposit, which the kid put in the wrong amount, but on deposit slip was correct. LAZY, he looked half asleep. I come home and go to set up the online statements but not before reading the list of FEES SHE DIDN'T TELL ME ABOUT!!! I was fuming! I called her up and she said, "What questions did you have, how can we make you more comfortable." I said, "You wasted an hour of my time, oh IT'S $25 TO CLOSE AN ACCOUNT BEFORE 180 DAYS. THEY TRIED TO CHARGE ME THAT THIS MORNING." I had to make a scene because I went to a different bank across from my house in Manchester as I was in Vernon yesterday, so I had opened there. She was supposed to call over and she did not to the manager at the one near my house!
She admitted to being wrong by ASSUMING I wanted this app. that links different accounts. If I'm opening an account at a different bank because I don't want anyone to have access to my other one, why would I do that? Too many hidden fees at this bank, I felt like she conned me and I told her so! She knew she was wrong when I called her and she still wanted me to keep the account! She never called the other manager. It doesn't look good when someone opens and closes an account within 24 hrs. Just beware and read the fine print first/because they don't give it to you until you are walking out the door! It's too late and you will be paying out your!
Hope this helps someone! They were useless! Only good to sit and chat! First impression, the kid says I always wanted to do this Heather meet Heather as it is both our names, Just unprofessional! Thank you to the Manchester Manager who took care of it minus the call that "Heather was supposed to make on my behalf!"
I got a car loan with Key Bank. Unfortunately, my vehicle was totaled. My insurance company paid them an amount estimated for the vehicle... They sent me a statement showing the payment. My insurance company recalculated the car amount. They are now paying them more. I also have gap insurance. It’s been three months I continued to make payments while my insurance company estimated the value. So after three months of payments no phone call saying my insurance company took the check back and they are sending a new one. They call me and give me a late fee and say I have to make a payment. I was put on hold. Argued with the representative and he put me on hold for 20 minutes while looking up my file. As if I’m just not paying and I still have this vehicle. They have no communication or records kept at all. Very unprofessional.
I used a Key Bank ATM at 2133 Poquonock Avenue in Windsor CT on February 20th at 11:09. I tried to take out $200. The ATM took a long time to dispense the cash. A red light went on and I received the message that the ATM was unable to process my transaction at that time. I tried again but this transaction failed as well. I then went across the street to a Webster Bank ATM and was able to withdraw $200 from my Key Bank account. I called customer service after I discovered that my account was debited for $200 even though I never received the money. They told me it would take up to 10 days to resolve this issue. It is day 2 and the $200 has still not been credited to my account.
This is too long in my opinion to resolve this type of dispute. I have had similar issues in the past with Bank of America and they always resolved this type of issue in one day. I also told customer support that I would like the foreign ATM fee waived from Webster Bank ATM. First they hesitated to handle this request until I stated that I should not be charged a fee due to the fact that Key Bank ATMs are not as reliable as Webster ATMs. Webster was able to process my withdrawal request and Key Bank was not. Customer support then said that I should call back once the fees are actually charged to my account at the end of the month. This is not the answer that I was looking for. I expect a timely resolution to my issue. My only regret with this problem is that I did not take a photo of the ATM error message but Key Bank should be able to verify this issue by looking at ATM logs for terminal KB2335.
Had to set up my online payment with them three times. I also had to drive to 20 miles to a branch to hand deliver my ACH information because they only accepted a Fax (which they said they can't confirm they received). After two months they had an issue and I was not notified so I went online to make the payment. My bank info was gone (again) and I had to work with their team for a "workaround" because of an archaic system design. By the way their system for fees and late fees seem to work fine. It seems like a scam to get fees (all have been waived though). Nothing but a headache.
This banks should be called FEEBANK, not Key Bank. Unscrupulous practices, items pending on a Sunday night when the Federal Reserve is closed are automatically pushed through just to create an overdraft. My family has over 500,000 in this bank and have used them since 1965, when they were Society National BANK. As a third generation banking customer, they cater to people that are in the credit range of 800 and up, and have at least 50,000 in the bank. They can stick their line of credit where the sun does not shine. And their crappy practices as well. I have had great service with Huntington and PNC which I have moved all my accounts to. My branch was in Huron, Ohio. Worst service ever. Went to close my account, and was told to come back another day because a 10.27 dollar charge at a gas station was pending. GO ** yourself KEY/FEEBANK!
I have to agree with others that this bank's practices are completely unscrupulous. Depending on who you talk to, you will receive different information about fees charged to your accounts. I have had false fees removed by some customer service reps but not others. They will flat out lie to you to get you to open accounts then hit you with fees that someone assured you would not incur. I am done with these thieves. Please, entrust your hard earned money elsewhere. This bank should be investigated and closed.
Key Bank will allow a transaction to go through and then make you pay a service charge. I have had this same experience multiple times. Today (2/6/18), when I called the customer service line, the lady I spoke with told me that "they were helping you out". In what land did "helping you out" involve making you pay for the help? I'm so pissed that I can't even go into the detail of my experience with this Fraud that calls itself a bank. Nevertheless, there are kind people at some of the branches I have visited, but the system is just there to "milk" customers. First thing 9 am tomorrow morning is to go down to the nearest branch and close my account. I have had enough. I wish I could pass with a Zero Star or even a minus Zero... Ha!
They are unscrupulous. They will edit your debit history, push through transactions and even hold deposits to make sure your balance is screwed up. Then they'll charge big fees. I have 2 account with this bank. Every month they figure out how they made my account go negative to charge overdraft fee's on top over and over again. Every month I'm paid $200.00 dollar about this issue. This is take money off my budget. I need to paid other thing. I can't afford those people take money off my account or manipulation my financial system just to made money for themselves.
We are a working class trying to get ahead on this difficult time not for this bank stolen are blind. On top of all that they have the haughtiness to put a hold on your account for 22 days even when you are paying with money all punishment. Hope someone on the district attorney office take all those complaint on consideration and something can be done for us. This is ridiculous. Run! Run!!! Out of this Key Bank.
I am closing an account tomorrow morning. I have spent the past six months, first, trying to get Key to acknowledge their mistake, and second, correct it. After the first fraudulent charge I called customer service, who told me to go into a local branch. I did, and the local branch manager told me to call customer service. By the time they removed the first 18.00 charge, two more had been added in the following months. Each time, I called, was told to go into a branch, and was told when I got there to call customer service.
Finally I guess they got tired of me and simply didn't send my statement (October) waiting until the end of November to remove the second eighteen dollar mistake. They had of course added one in September so they still owe me eighteen dollars. I would close the account but I feel like then they still keep the eighteen dollars. This is not a simple mistake; it is a planned profiteering scheme. If I had time I'd write a longer review and send it to the F.T.C.
If you love throwing money away, this is the bank for you. On several occasions they have held my deposit & my debits go through & have ended up with $100 in fees. I've tried talking with them, the branch people are rude & call center don't care. This place needs investigated. They are ripping people off!
I have had an account with this bank for many years. Recently after having a new automatic deposit of several hundred dollars they started delaying debits to my account in order to put it in Insufficient Funds status. During the middle of Christmas shopping in 2017 they charged me an overdraft fee when my account showed a positive balance. I made a deposit immediately which they delayed posting. So the overdraft fees continued. I had automatic payments I could not stop because of PayPal policies. But mostly because of Key Bank my account is now over $700 in arrears. They have financially ruined me. And they don't seem to care. I fully believe that they did this because of the new direct deposit. They assumed they could collect from that but I was able to change that deposit in time to another bank who truly cares about their customers!!!
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