Lindal Cedar Homes

I bought a Lindal house which I later learned was built in 1970. It is roughly chalet style. The house is okay, but has turned out to be very hard to modify to make it better insulated or stronger. Unlike conventional houses, you can not simply gut them and rebuild. Every part, especially the roof, is related to other parts to support the whole, so nothing can be changed. Maybe new ones are different. I have tried to get suggestions from Lindal and they give a little advice, but nothing solid. Meanwhile, in winter, the house costs a lot to heat. We cannot find any local contractors who are qualified to work on this house. Lindal could help by offering advice on how to modify these houses, even if they charge for it.

We purchased a Lindal home already built. We loved it so much and we were going to build a smaller home on our property for my folks. We used a preexisting plan Lindal had, had the down payment, and then, my father unexpectedly passed away. They said we could use our $15k deposit toward an addition on the existing home, which my father asked me to do when he got sick.

Lindal (via their website of authorized dealers) referred us to Frank, who was supposedly the Hawaii dealer. I talked with Frank and sent him pictures of our existing house. I even accurately drew out our existing home for him, converted it to AutoCAD which was more convenient for him, and the proposed addition, shot elevations for him, basically handed everything for him to help us produce a plan for Lindal and a materials list.

A year and a half later, I was so frustrated when Frank stopped responding to me. I called Lindal headquarters and was routed to Rob at Lindal headquarters. He told me that we could use our $15k for materials and to find a contractor to help us with the plans. Frank supposedly was getting our original house plans from Lindal to help us with the addition. But after asking for references over and over, I finally got the message by the non-response that we were on our own.

I contacted Lindal myself several times to find out that our 18-year-old plans were tossed; yet someone else within Lindal told me that they have them in a warehouse. Someone was just lazy and didn't want to find them. Which is it? We went back to the (now retired) architect that had reviewed our Lindal home which we were going to build for my parents. He felt so sorry on our journey with Lindal. He put together the plans and he clearly called out Lindal specs on the plans (I could even figure it out and I have had a stroke!).

I had been given Hugh's name by Rob to contact for material pricing. When I sent the plans to him, I was told that I needed to either hire a Lindal dealer to produce plans which would use up most of what was left of our deposit, or a contractor to give him a list of Lindal materials needed so he could make a price list of my monies left of $7,877.50.

Where did the rest of our monies go? How are we supposed to know what Lindal material has to offer? This was what I have asked Lindal for three years and never got an answer, and yet, here we are at the crossroads. We did everything they asked, and they are leaving us out in the cold again. For three years, they have given us the runaround, have not given us any direction, in fact, avoided it, and hidden the lack of a dealer on Maui or any of the islands (by the way, there is no one here). And now, we have to guess what type of materials we need from Lindal, and we have less than half of our deposit to work with and no explanation.

I have never ever worked with a company that has truly made me feel the concept of big corporation, and I don't matter because they can do what they want. I clearly explained to Lindal that we needed help, my husband is permanently disabled from a brain injury and me with my disabilities, but instead, I feel that empowered them to not help us. If anyone asked me, I would strongly caution any business dealings with Lindal.

I was told by Ken ** that if I sent payment for Lindal Cedar Home parts and supplies that I would get them delivered via Fed Ex the following week. I needed to re-do my Lindal Cedar sunroom (as the cedar had lots of wet-rot after 18 years and bug infestation) and my builder has a specific time frame to be able to finish the job. Over a full week later, no sign of delivery.

My biggest worry though is I went through months of waiting last year for my initial order of parts, after many e-mails and phone calls and no action, I waited and wondered if parts would ever come. Now I am waiting and wondering all over again. Another nightmare, but I hope not! I sent full payment via wired funds to Manitou almost 2 weeks ago. I even told Ken my builder could get the same kind of tape product through a local construction company (Grainger), but he said that my order was already put in and being packaged and that was over a week ago. My builder is ready to walk as there are no supplies to get my job done in a timely manner.

Lindal Cedar Homes, Manitou Custom Homes and Ken ** have taken responsibility for problems related to our attempt to purchase Lindal Cedar Home building materials, and they have resolved the matter to our satisfaction.

We bought a Lindal Cedar Homes plan book from Manitou Group LTD. In that book we found a house we wanted to build: the Greenbriar model. We used Microsoft Excel to frame out the dimensions with each cell representing a .5 foot scale that we used to rearrange the inner walls, understanding that changing the "footprint" would cause additional cost.

After we modified the plans to what we wanted, we sent them off to The Manitou Group and asked our second Home Selection Expert, Anthony, if the turn-key cost would be around $300,000 as that is what we were looking for (our assigned Home Selection Expert kept changing). Anthony sent us several emails asking other finishing questions which we answered. We also made some modifications of the Excel drafted plans and conveyed them to Anthony. Through the conversation, we were told that Cedar siding was more expensive than Hardi-Plank, so to keep our cost down we needed to make that change. Of course we opted for the Hardi-Plank. We also agreed to downgrade to shingles vs. a metal roof, again to keep the cost down.

Since our constant concern was the turn-key price we asked again, in writing this time, what the turn-key price was for building the home and that we would rather put off the project than continue if the price was too high. We were assured that the turn-key cost would be around $300,000. A few days before our first formal meeting with Anthony to discuss and review the recent changes, we were notified that Anthony was no longer employed there but we were assured that the CEO, Mr. Kenneth W., was "brought up to speed".

When we arrived at the Manitou Group LTD model home in Kalamazoo, Michigan, we were surprised that the plans were an exact replica of the Excel worksheet and none of the subsequent conversations (except for the use Hardi-plank) made it into the design. Ken assured us that they had the changes and they would be reflected in the next set of plans but that we should go ahead and sign the preliminary plans and the Purchase and Sale agreement for the Greenbriar model. Up to that point we did all the design work! But wanting to believe we were now in good hands with the "president" of the company, we signed.

Not being construction savvy, we thought the specification listing was all the parts we were buying and all we'd have to do is find someone to assemble it. Wrong! The list has several parts marked as NIC (not in contract). We found out after we got toward the end of the plans stage that what we were actually buying was only a part of the shell of the house, interior doors, trim and posts. No plumbing, electrical, heating/cooling or walls! The builder would have to supply the rest! Oh, and Ken would be nice enough to recommend a builder with "experience with Lindal packages".

With each step we were shown faulty plans, but were assured in the next step they would be fixed. When the "final" construction plans were shown we noticed instead of removing the pantry to make the kitchen bigger, they just extended the loft and kitchen into the dining room! We were at an open house party, so we politely pulled Ken aside and explained the "final" plans were still wrong. Not only the pantry, loft and kitchen, but also the walkout lower level changes were still not made! He assured us that he would get Seattle to fix it but that we should go ahead and sign them.

He then pulled out an "authorization to ship" form which he wanted us to sign so that when the plans were corrected and we could proceed to permit plans, etc. We were concerned they would now charge us for the plan changes and felt uncomfortable signing the form, so Ken wrote the word "corrected" to assure us we were only agreeing to proceed if the plans were corrected. These plans, having structural beams in the dining room, would not be the plans the construction drawings would be based on!

This is now the first time he introduced us to a Lindal experienced builder (Kevin). At this point he gave us two builder bids, one was astronomical in price and Kevin's, although high, was much lower. So we agreed to use Kevin as the builder being assured that his pricing included allowances for "over-runs". In a phone conversation later, he told us an extra $10,000 would be needed now to move things along and that it would show up as part of our financing down payment later.

Well, by the time the project got to the financing stage (now at the end of the contractual Lindal part), we finally found out the total cost of the project was not "around $300,000" but $475,000 ($75,000 was our land cost)! The final issue was that the "Post and Beam" Lindal Cedar Home was really a "Stick Home" with decorative support beams vs. normal enclosed beams and the value of the home came in at $375,000 (including the value of the land). Ken told us that his other clients get financing as a "convenience" but agreed to apply a discount which came out to $10,000.

The builder reduced his contractor fee but couldn't reduce the other costs since the majority of the house was missing from Lindal's "package". We never were given corrected plans that had the pantry, kitchen, and loft to sign off on; instead we received a PDF that had the structural changes made but still did not have the continuously repeated lower level changes! We met with him a total of 4 times. We were pushed through the Lindal stages but neglected to follow up with the bank or us in a timely manner, which caused us to have to resubmit our asset documentation repeatedly.

This whole project was a nightmare and because we were too afraid to take legal action sooner, we ended up in a worse mess. Now that we are terminating the contract, Lindal and Manitou are playing games by ignoring our desire to terminate, threatening that the "package" was already being assembled (but could not provide detail to prove it) and could now accumulate costs for being on "hold". They accused us of making a phone call we didn't make, nor would they consider giving a portion of our deposit back. And the extra $10,000 to be applied to our down payment? It apparently went to toward all the hard work Ken did for us.

Run away from Manitou Group LTD, Ken W. and Lindal Cedar Homes! Although the contract states we would lose the initial payment of 15% of the package price ($134,000), which would be $20,100. We paid them $30,400.00 with $10,000 of that amount to be applied to our financing down payment, not the package. We have tried to terminate since November 2009 and have incurred ongoing legal fees and stress. This matter is still not resolved.

Because of the direct result of our general contractor not being on the job site.. instead taking multiple vacations and sending us 50K over budget. our house finished 2 months behind schedule and our home burned down 4 days after we moved in. It burned down on 12-19-07. 2 weeks later while the insurance company was trying to figure out the total dollar amount of the loss Frank Hurlbutt took a 2 week vacation to Mexico. He promised to have a bid turned in before he left on vacation and took off without a word, delaying the start of the rebuild by approx. 6 weeks. I'm looking for any former Lindal clients who have taken Lindal Cedar Concepts to court in the last year or two. also anyone who has had business dealings with Frank Hurlbutt with simular results.

My experience with Lidal Cedar Homes has been a nightmare!!!!! The company hides behind their dealers, claiming no responsibility. I built my home in 2007, moved in on December 14th after going 50k over budget and finishing 2 months later than promised. 4 days later on December 19th our house caughter on fire due to builder error! We lived in a hotel for 6 months. Legal action is pending. Now our builder Frank has even placed leins on our home, and did not pay one of our main suppliers which also placed a lein!!!! Be very careful before you decide to do business with either of these people. This is my opinion and I stand behind it and all of the facts as well!

Insurance claim is over 400K not counting personal and emotional damages

In November of 2007 we started our disappointing adventure with Lindal Cedar Homes by visiting the model home in Seattle and received a quote of $185 per sf on a standard plan. With modifications we planned to be on target to meet our budget. Unfortunately, we trusted this local business, but that trust was misplaced. If we had done our homework we would have discovered how Lindal really operates and could have avoided this very costly experience.

Whats so important to emphasize here is that from day one Seattle Cedar Homes refused to give us individual written costs on the materials and purposefully kept everything vague and confusing on the modifications, so we never knew where we stood. This situation left us totally vulnerable to pricing games and set us up to have our deposit unfairly confiscated later, even though we received no materials.

In April 2008 we received the first rough draft of our changes and were given a materials cost of $197,559. We decided to go with non-Lindal windows/doors and were given a credit of $12,051. We also deleted the post and beam garage - changing it to standard construction? - and removed cedar liner in some areas. Later in the month we asked for new totals. The new calculation for materials was now more than $40,000 higher than the original cost. With all of the reductions how can the materials cost more? Were told that it still doesnt account for ALL of the changes and that well have time to recalculate later.

On May 4 we hand over our $33,600 deposit. The materials list still includes the original windows and doors that we thought had been deleted in April. Were promised that this isnt by any means final and we will get the grand total after the pricing department has calculated everything for us. Later we try to reduce costs further but because Lindal hasnt given us an updated materials total, we have no idea if were within our budget. We still lack any written documentation on the changes and the rep distracts us by saying, our house will probably make one of the new Lindal books!? Although we have stated all along that there will be no financing, he suggests getting a loan for the 3rd time to cover their cost overruns. Were not impressed!

In June the preliminary drawings are ready but we are now four months into this project and still dont know what the total cost of our new home will be! In September we apply for the permit and finally get the change order of -$15.850 for the deleted windows. After all this time we still do not have the final total for our modifications and it becomes apparent that Lindal does not want us to know!

On November 3 our building permit is approved. We contact our salesman who still doesnt have our materials cost down on paper. After some wrangling we get a verbal approximate? cost from him. With the latest contractors bid the total cost is now $270,000 over what we had budgeted. Our $185.00 per sq ft price had risen to $266.00 per sq.ft.!!

The following weekend Steve goes to SCH to see if its possible to take $270,000 out of the project. We discover that were not the only ones with budget problems since during his visit a couple stops by to get help modifying their plans due to their high cost overruns! Later via email we suggest several more reductions but the salesman admits that he cant tell us what a stick of wood costs because Lindals prices are bundled?! So, were finally getting to the crux of the whole pricing problem. Its becoming apparent that he cant help us because he doesnt know!

In mid November we call our salesman for a new total. He seems paralyzed and confused about how to handle the situation and suggests that we get financing to cover the difference, for the 4th time! Things get heated and we decide that were going to have to build only the garage or walk away from the entire project. He tells us that we cant use our plans and that Lindal will be keeping our $33,600 deposit!

Talk about unfair and deceptive business practices! Lindal hides all the figures until the point of no return, then they spring the final amount on you when its contractually too late to back out, and you have to either continue with the huge unjustified price increases or forfeit your money!

By late November we made our decision to end this nightmare and hired an architect and engineer. On the bright side, the cost to build our newly designed dream home is $188.00 per sq. ft. for an enormous savings of more than $300,000 over Lindals inflated price. Its been a huge relief to know the true cost to design and build our project, something that Lindal makes sure you don't know until after you've signed on the dotted line! Our message to those who are just starting: Keep your peace of mind and your money and do it yourself.

We have recently arrived at an overall estimate for a Lindahl home which is 30% over our initial estimate with Lindal. We approved Final Design Plans, then discovered this increase. Does anyone have any experience with the notification process for Lindahl price increases since there is an escape clause in the contract to this effect?

If we dont figure this out, we feel like we will be out our deposit of over $30,000.

During construction of our package deal we discovered one of the beams had started to separate. We called the rep (salesman) and he said that is common and he would send out a repair kit and if done properly you could hardly tell it was patched. WHAT? Also the windows were so bad we could not use them. They said they would take them back at a fraction of what they cost and we pay freight. We still have them but put in Anderson windows. None of the beams in the house are of the same size. The beams on the left do not match the ones on the right and even in the master bed one beam is ONE 2x6 shorter than the other one and it is only 5' away same in the other bedroom. But it is even more noticable in the great room as the beam that is suppose to match the kitchen beam is 8 shorter and because it protrudes out side for support of the roof it looks atusive. It's as though the engine could save an extra 2x6 because of the load calculation and did not care of the customer's dream home.

I have not heard from them and after reading some of the horror stories of other customers I don't expect to. If you are thinking of a Lindal Cedar DON'T. Hire an architect, design what you want and hire a builder. My contractor said if we would have done just that, we could have saved about 100,000 dollars. At this point we will make the house as beautiful as we can despite all of their shortcuts.

I have 25 years experience in the construction industry as a designer, contractor and executive-level sales manager for other name-brand building products. I've spent the last 6 years with Lindal - two as a sales rep and four as a sunroom dealer/builder. I also, regrettably, built a Lindal sunroom on my home to be used as a model. My negative experience in all 3 areas - as a rep, a dealer, and a customer - has turned me into a committed consumer advocate.

10 Things You Should Know

1. Lindal advertising can be harmful to your health. Lindal is a marketer and supplier ONLY and has no control or oversight with dealers, project design or construction.

2. Don't be pressured by special sales. Ask for an extension. Shop around.

3. Lindal DOES NOT teach design or construction and will recruit anyone in spite of background or suitability. Nothing overcomes bad design.

4. Beware of exorbitant design fees disguised as material deposits that may not be refundable.

5. Most dealers do not know BEANS about construction. Do your homework.

6. Dealers are NOT agents for the manufacturer so there is no accountability when things go wrong.

7. Protect your money at all times through bonds, escrows and small draws. Don't pay without proof of solvency.

8. Due to high dealer turnover future warranty service or repairs will be difficult to impossible. Existing dealers are not obligated to fix your problem. You're on your own.

9. DO NOT sign anything with Arbitration Clauses without consulting an attorney. You'll be sorry.

10. The probability that you will have trouble with your order, your dealer, your contractor and/or your warranty service is very high.